Being “Fixers” in Organizational Chaos

Corporate boardrooms. Startup chaos. Different worlds, same story: someone has to be the fixer. Portia Mount and Jabu Dayton join forces as co-hosts for Season 6 of Ungovernable Women to talk about what it takes to hold organizations together, and the particular weight of doing that work as Black women in those spaces.

Have a question or comment? Email us at ungovernablewomen@gmail.com.

Portia Mount on LinkedIn

Jabu Dayton on LinkedIn

Instagram @ungovernablexwomen

TikTok @ungovernablewomen

Transcript

Welcome And Why We Fix

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey Jabs. Hey Porcia. I am so glad to have you as a co-host this season. We've been talking about this for a long time, haven't we?

SPEAKER_00 0:14

It's been years.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Yeah, yeah. And I think the thing that I think about is uh we are finally working in the same space together. Uh I followed you after, I guess it's like I'm going into three, almost three years in uh as an entrepreneur, and you're oh are you more than 10 at this stage? Yeah, I think I'm at 13. 13. Oh my gosh. So it's crazy to think that you were doing quote fractional work before like it was ever called that. That's right. That was a thing, right? And now it's now it's now it's a whole thing. And everyone's uh for better for better or worse, right? I mean, there's probably there's a there's a lot of reasons why that is. And I'm struck by, I wonder if this is, you know, especially with you having 13 years in the business, that so much of our work has to do with fixing. Like I guess we don't even know, we don't even get the call if there's not shit that's broken, right? Normally we're getting a call because something, like someone needs us to do something. I I'm I'm curious, like, what's been your reflection on that just in general in terms of being a fixer?

SPEAKER_00 1:25

I do feel like this is something that is particularly assigned to women and black women in particular. Um, and I as an observer, I often watch this and think how unfortunate it is because people are being asked to come in when the company is at its weakest. Yeah. Um, and then you are brought in to fix something that no one else before you has been able to.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Wow. Like you're Jesus, and you're gonna be able to like literally walk on water, or you know, Moses, you're gonna lead the people through. I think it's it's crazy that how true that is.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

So crazy, and it's so not right, but it is also very tempting for someone like I know both of us to be, who feel very confident in our skill base and our knowledge base, our expertise. And we're just like, I know I can just get in there. I can just do it. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, you you also underestimate um and and don't know because you haven't done an analysis yet. So you don't know the full scope of the damage or what needs to be worked on. You can see the low-hanging fruit and you target that. But I do there are times that I wonder what my life would be like if I weren't constantly in a nine-drawn to the chaos. Yes. I'm drawn to the chaos. Because I really do love peace and I really want to find peace. But there is something very fulfilling about stepping in when no one else can, quite frankly. It's uh yeah. Yeah, I I agree.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

I feel like, you know, I I've done a lot of introspection on this one. And I think the thing I think about is when even in my corporate jobs, I was fixing things. I was turning around marketing teams. I was, I was, I was just fixing the broken things. And I think I think your point around that um black leaders, women, uh, we get these are the where the opportunity like here's the crazy thing, and this is the reality. This is where the opportunity is. I mean, think about it. We didn't even get our first black president until the whole economy was going off a cliff. Yes, right. I don't know that, like, I mean, would it have Obama? He's still my president, he is still my president, but I know he would not be our president but for the fact that the American economy was crashing and burning. And that was like the ultimate glass cliff assignment, right? Although he did get two terms, but then those two terms, you know, gave us that orange man. So anyway, we won't talk about we won't spend anybody we won't think about that because we're not gonna talk about that. We're not gonna talk about that. But I mean, I do think that's where the opportunity is. And so when when I get calls from other professionals and they tell me about this job and, you know, all this stuff, I'm like, oh, but then I'm also like, if I know they've been waiting in the wings to get to make that leap onto an executive team, especially, I just want I don't ever tell them don't do it. I just say, listen, just go in with your eyes wide open.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Exactly. No, I think that's great advice. And in our roles, you know, we're typically working with more than one company at a time, which makes it particularly interesting, right? 100%. Like you, my corporate experiences and my startup experiences were all, you know, I need you to hire a hundred people in three months work at the time.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Which by the way, I can't even wrap my mind around.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Like

The Glass Cliff For Black Women

SPEAKER_00 5:13

you are better than me. Um I've done this too, and I know you how capable and amazing you are. And now when I look back at those times, you know, I was working for people that were under 30 years old frequently and hadn't done any of the things that they were asking me to do. And I came from a corporate background and you just said yes and figured out how to do it later.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

That's right. Just like you just figure you just flip and figure it out, right? There's no like, oh, I don't know. It's like, okay, that's impossible. What do I gotta do? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

And I learned so much from that. And that was true even in the corporate offices where we had scaffolding. It was like, look, you're gonna need to hire a couple hundred people every few months for a sale or a holiday in retail as an example, right? And there was scaffolding, there was a foundation, there was an orientation, but it was still you that had to do it on your own, typically. And so, how do you pull people together to make something great, um, short-term, quickly, all the things that you and I do on a daily basis? I do, I do wonder if there is like a next level of our work that is not quite as fraught with tension and stress. And some of the things that come along with this is that you're working for leaders who can't always hear you because they're in a fight or flight mentality. And they know they need you, they they court you, they charm you, they bring you on. All of a sudden they want to tell you how to do the very thing that you know best how to do. So it's a very delicate, complex, you know, nuanced uh conversation that you have to have with these CEOs. And sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes you got to exit out of that situation.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Well, we both know from that, right? Where it's like it's, and I think this is really important for the folks listening, whether you're an entrepreneur, fractional, and you're doing this or you're in a corporate setting, is oftentimes the problems are super obvious. They're not just not obvious to you, they're obvious to everybody else. And for whatever reason, the culture, the leader, the board, whatever, that problem hasn't gotten fixed. And then here you come in like a shiny new penny, and everyone is so hopeful, you can just come in and wave your wand and make it happen. But I think what we know now, and I know certainly from you know all my many years on earth, which is you can see all the low-hanging fruit you want. But if there isn't a true willingness to make the change, and I think I'm getting better. Maybe this is what you're teaching me of like that upfront conversation about here's what I'm here to do and here's what it's gonna take. And you're not you're not always gonna love the solution. But I'm not saying I have to be right all the time, but what I am saying is you're hiring for my expertise. We all, you know, the problem, your team knows the problem, I know the problem, all the other shit you've tried doesn't work. Let's maybe we try a different way. How about that? How about that? Get out of my way. Yeah, a concept.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Well, and I I I do wonder again, because you do see people that are allowed to do this. So in in the same instance, you can be working with their executive team who is left alone to do the work that they know how to do or or in some case how to do. And yet you're the one that's being kind of managed really tightly. So there are elements of that that I'm always really curious about because I know that um no one hires me to kind of be a yes person and and you and you would never be one in you would never be one, and I certainly would not never.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

I mean, we are Scorpio and Libras, like we like signing up just to say yes is not anywhere near our DNA. So it's just not what we do, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:25

No. So I think and I think that's where having each other to talk to and really being able to, you know, brainstorm on strategies. Sometimes you need an actual strategy to talk to the CEO who hired you about what happened next, or the board members that are involved on it in the day-to-day running of that particular whatever the issue is. Um, but it's fascinating work. And if you can, if you can get some things done, it's incredibly fulfilling.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

It it really is. And I think maybe I love solving a super wicked problem. And I think that's why this work is so attractive to me, is I love, I love getting in there. Like I have really great pattern recognition. I am really good at looking and seeing the whole system. I'm really good at understanding people dynamics. Yeah. And that is both, I would say, a superpower and it's kryptonite because again, the organization is only gonna move as far as it's ready to go. You can have one of my favorite sayings is when you're right, that's all you get to be. Like you could be so right and see all these things and still not and just still not accomplish what you want to do. And I think as a fractional, that's probably the more frustrating thing because we don't own anything we do. Like we do it, we release it, and we're on to the next thing. And it's actually not our job to try to, you know, like, and I've had to really work out like, well, just try this. Okay, well, that didn't work. Well, what about this? But at some point you're like, look, I have to move on because I don't work here. I don't work here and they're not ready. So I've done everything I could, and that's good enough for right now, you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

It has to be good enough. And I think that it has that you're talking about. Um you can see a little bit further down the road than maybe they can. And so the thing to them that seem unimportant and they don't want to prioritize, you actually

Low Hanging Fruit Versus Real Change

SPEAKER_00 11:38

know are the keys to their success in three, five, and ten years. That's right. So it's it can feel very um, you know, you can even feel sad about it because you're just like, if if we could just get a couple of these things done.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Yeah, just just just do this one, these two things. Just do them a patron, a foundation, like something. I know it's like sometimes like and I can I say this as like as a parent, you know. Um let me say this as like a sports. I taught, you know, if you if people follow me, I'm a hardcore sports parent. And the thing that I understand about kids in sports is you can't want it more than they do. Yeah. You just can't. Like you may have all the hopes and dreams for them to do X, Y, and Z. It doesn't matter. If they're not into it, they're not into it. And so you just have to be ready to release that. And I think, and that's like that's the ego part, I think, of also this work is like asking yourself, am I digging in because of my own need for achievement, which is something I've had to grapple with because like I don't like failing, I don't like quitting. And if that's something that drives you as a fractional, you will be perennially unhappy because there's a lot of stuff that you'll try that it's a good thing. It just didn't work in this context. That's right. You have to be willing to let that go, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

I think also letting go of the need to be liked. I mean, we're all all of us. Oh gosh. Wow. But you know, and and then you're working with CEOs who think that leadership is telling people what to do. They don't have much experience, they don't understand, like, actually, I need you to look at the whole picture and think of it as an organism working together and which picture with the other. And you making a quick decision, which maybe serves you in a fundraising or external facing role, does not necessarily work internally running the company day to day. So it, you know, everyone's doing the best that they can, of course.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Are are are are they though, Jabu? Are they doing, are they really doing their best? Let me be spiritualistic. Let it be Miss Judy McJudgy, because I don't feel people like are always bringing their best to them. I'm gonna go ahead and go on the record to say, I don't think some of these people are doing their best. And let those of them let those of them out there in the public guess who I might be talking about. I don't know. They're all doing their best.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

I think the fascinating thing about some of these founders and CEOs is that they are mavericks, right? Yes. Yes on the outside of they are iconoclasts, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Or they certainly want to be seen that way, right? Or they or they they read the book and they're like they read the book, yeah. And they saw the movies.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Exactly. And so they don't fit in and they don't want to fit in and they do think they're right. And that is part of what has made them successful up to a certain point. And then I think we all have to just look internally when things are starting to go left and say, what I've been doing isn't working. So maybe I need a reboot. Maybe I need to download different information, maybe I need different advisors. Like the advisors I had got me this far. Who do I need now to take me to the next step? And that's maybe where people call on you and I to come in. But there might be dissonance internally. It might be uncomfortable. We're not like a known quantity. We might be the only black executive for in their company, right? A lot of times you and I are walking into spaces where there is no one else that looks like us.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

That is a hundred percent the case. Like it's a continuation of our corporate work too, right? We're like nobody I and honestly, I try not to think about that anymore, Jabu, because it's like it's not anything I can do about, but it is true, it is true, and it does have an impact on sort of how people receive you, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:38

It does. I don't know that you and I are impacted by it very much anymore. I could give a rat. Yeah, but I don't I don't give a rat to us, really. It's like you you hired me.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

You hired me.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Yeah. And so you know what I can do, and that's why you hired me, and you you already know who I am. So, but I do think internally for them, I was actually coaching. I do some pro bono non, you know, nonprofit coaching for some some organizations I really love and respect. And they had just added their first African American team member to the team. And she happens to be also an introvert. And so the rest of the team is very extroverted, loves to connect, loves to be online together, loves to do Zooms and have their, you know, all the things. And this woman is less comfortable doing that personality-wise. Probably has nothing to do with their ethnicity, to be frank. But her boss is a white woman who's very considerate and thoughtful and just wanted to be very sensitive to anything that might be emerging. But the fact is, like people move differently in workspaces. And you, as a manager, either are gonna adjust to that or you're gonna sit them down and have a conversation about what it looks like in this space and how you would love them to contribute if they're able to. So it's really simple stuff. It's not terribly complicated, but it is work that has to be done. And if you don't do it, then you everyone's uncomfortable and no one knows what's going on or why.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Yeah, yeah. You know, I was thinking about you know, what you said around like you really do want peace. And you're you're not looking for to be, you know, always be coming in in the middle of the storm. Yes. And I just, especially for our corporate leaders who are out there, because most people aren't doing what we're doing. Not not yet anyway, although maybe maybe we'll see more as people are like, as you know, as people are making different choices about their careers and the layoffs that are happening right now are pretty alarming. But I I also do think, which is, you know, a a really interesting topic, just the way we work is changing. Yes, fundamentally. Um but I I what I do wonder for the folks who are pulled into those fixer roles, like what's our like what's our advice for you know, because again, that's where the that is still especially for black professionals, women, other marginalized people, that is where the opportunities are.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

You know, it's like people can fight me on that one. But you know, what advice are you giving to folks who are like this VP

When CEOs Court You Then Control You

SPEAKER_01 18:28

opportunity or it's the potential to be a VP opportunity is coming up. And hey, should I take the job? What are you saying?

SPEAKER_00 18:37

I mean, I do believe, and I I I wonder if you agree that you learn the most in the most challenging situations. I think so. So frankly, I think so. You really can't make a mistake. And that is kind of, you know, for people who are very um focused on doing things the right way and not making mistakes. And maybe a mistake means you're only there for a year or two as opposed to three or five, then maybe opening up to the idea that there are no mistakes, as long as you're learning and contributing, you're still winning. And I think that applies even to us in this fixer role, um, where the stress level is pretty high, the intensity level is 1,000. But we know how to work in those spaces. We do very well in them. And for as long as we're enjoying them, I think there's value to be had there.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Yeah, I I agree. I definitely feel like if I if I think about my corporate experiences and the experiences now that I'm doing as a fixer, um the learning has been exponential, right? The stress has also been exponential.

unknown 19:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

I think the things I would really concretely advise someone about would be one, understand your resources.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Yes. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Uh I'm thinking in particular of a black woman, she's an industrial engineer working for a tech company that shall remain nameless. And she was just an unbelievable intellect. And they were consolidating teams, and she her teams were getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And I was like, hey, um, are you getting any other support? And she's like, Well, you know, they're promising me this or that. And I'm like, you know, and she's leading the black leader ERG, which is like a whole axe to grind. I have a whole axe to grind on leading employee resource groups while you're doing these really complex jobs. And the company was promising her resources and being really slow about it. And she was working Jabu insane hours. Yeah. Insane hours, and trying to be a mentor to other black leaders and supporting her mom. And she had this big global project. And, you know, I finally sat her down because she was just like, I can't keep it up. And I was like, something's gonna give.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

So what is it? So one, before you say yes, get super clear on the resources, and I mean budget, project management, uh, executives, whatever it is. Yeah. The other thing that really just kind of chaps me is when they dangle the title over your head.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

And they say, Oh, this has this is VP track. Well, guess what? Give that to me now because they will find a way to not give it to you.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

That's right. If it's VP work, then I need the title now. It's a little bit, um, I've said this before, but you need to act like you see other people acting in those faces.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Yes. Say it again for the people in the chat.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

It's not about being liked, it's about saying, I'm I'm more than happy to take this on for you. And here's what I need. Need to do it. I recently only took on a fractional opportunity, something that I had done before and left because of the of the chaos. And I came back only because they offered me a few things that I knew would make a difference. What did I ask for? What did I ask for? Operationally, I needed the one woman that could make things happen internally there on my team. And she agreed to be my sort of chief of staff internally. Okay. Because it's tough to navigate their internal space. It's not well organized. Um, and I don't have time to fuss around and chase people down. So if she could help me, fabulous. I also asked for an in-person meeting with a CEO. A lot of my CEOs I've never met in person. So, you know, you don't yeah. Right. No, but I asked, we happen to live close to each other, and I asked for an in-person and I sat down and we talked about how this was gonna go and what I needed to be successful. Um and that was the second, that was the second time around. So that yeah, that was so the first time around you had not met her. Not in person. Not in person. In person, that's right. Yeah. So, and you know, you don't think about it, but like I'm looking you in the eye and I'm letting you know this is what I need, and I want to make sure that you're comfortable with that. Um, and they were, and we move forward on that basis. But you know, coming from that, that's that's a C level sort of attitude. And the the VP you're talking about at that company that they're at, they would be considered C level anywhere else, right? So they're doing C level work at this company that's a massive company. So I think it's just at the honestly, I've told people this countless times. I would never have become a C level um if I hadn't demanded it. No one was offering it to me.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

No, they're not in fact, they're not going to. They're happy to like pay you the least, keep you at a title, keep you not visible, just do the work.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

We'll kick you a bonus. Even worse, they want you visible, they want you on the website, they want you on the board. Oh yeah. They're they're going to support you in that role. So that's right. But so it was a non-negotiable. If you want me to come on full time with you, I'm happy to do that. And I need this role to be, you know, to have any sort of impact. So it it's more about negotiation and not feeling uncomfortable asking for things. And if you don't know how to do that, which none of us knew how to do, you have to watch people who are really good at it. And you honestly just have to mimic that until comfortable.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

I I I I totally agree with that. And I think especially as black leaders in these spaces where we are most usually the minority, and then

Ask For Resources And Demand The Title

SPEAKER_01 24:55

it's often the way we're raised, right? Like, don't be um be humble, yeah, be gracious. Yeah, you should just be happy to be here, you know. And a lot of times we're the first in our families who have been in these roles, like have had, you know, these big these outsized roles with big, you know, spans of control and budgets. And so, hey, you should just be happy to be here. But it's like, no, because you're accountable. And at the end of the day, they're gonna like it's on you to make this happen. And if you don't ask for what you need, all of a sudden, like, I it's amazing to me. And this is the thing that breaks my heart so much, Jabu, is I've watched someone come in with so much promise into a role that you know, you and I would know is like, oof, this is gonna be really tough. And then six months later, this person goes from being a superstar to be to derailing. Well, what changed? Yeah. Why are they derailing? It's not because all of a sudden they became incompetent, it's because they literally were not set up to be successful. And and it's on, and unfortunately, I'd love to, you know, it'd be great to have a world where the leaders said, Hey, make sure they get this and make sure they get that. And but that's not what happens. You have to demand it and you have to say, I'm I'm not taking the job unless I get these things.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Yeah. And even when you're in discovery of them, you've already accepted the job. If you get in and you realize, oops, I didn't know this was coming down the pipe, then you go back and you say, Um, let's reconsider because this is actually different than what we thought it was gonna be. And it's right. I think the key point is you cannot play a victim role. Victims don't ask. Victims complain. They don't ask for what they need. And so there's a mental shift that has to happen, or at least it it did with me, where I was like feeling like people weren't giving me things, but I also was not asking for them. Yeah. And and I didn't know how to. It sounds so crazy, but like I just did not have the skill set. And it was easier for me to complain and feel like I was a victim than it was for me to get my courage up and go say, I need help.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Yeah, I I I think um, yeah, we could all use a little bit more. I think especially, especially women and and and leaders of color, we need more audacity, right? Like I'm always amazed when I am talking to like the sort of 20 something early 30 something set. Like the stuff they'll ask for, like part of me is like, what the f and then also part of me is like, wow, like I'm super impressed that you have the audacity and the balls to ask for all of that when you aren't even remotely qualified. But you know what? Like, I like how can I be mad because the squeaky, the squeaky wheel gets greased a lot. And unfortunately, you know, unfortunately, especially when you're working around busy, preoccupied leaders whose attention will go to the person who is the loudest, right? Like, I would love to see uh more emotionally intelligent, sort of um empathetic, plugged-in leaders. Yeah. There's just they're in short supply, is what I would say. Very short.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Well, and I think that's true culturally, right? We're we're not living in an era where those attributes are necessarily lauded as, you know, things that make you successful. And so I think, you know, I did have to build a a thicker skin for myself in a lot of different ways. You and I have talked about this a lot. And I had to get more articulate about what I needed and why. And then I just kind of had to put my foot down in in several cases and walk, be prepared to walk out the door.

Audacity, Boundaries, And Walking Away

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Be prepared to walk out. That's the big, that's the big one, right? You you have to be ready to call the bluff and to say, okay, like I'm good. Thank you. I'm getting like this is not for like we're we're we're we're we're at the part where it's not me, it's you. Love ya. I love you. However, now is the time we part.

unknown 29:31

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

I mean, it's like dating. You just you can't be so worried about the other person's feelings that you're staying in a place that's not good for you.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

That is yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, that that sort of, you know, I feel like the concept of self-care is probably we've over-massaged that one as a culture right now. But yeah, I think one of the things I appreciate about being working with you is that you and I can talk to each other. So one, especially fractional work is very lonely. Yes. Um, I am personally like I haven't tried any of those fractional groups. Like, that's not really like it's not really my thing. I'm not a joiner, you know. So for for better or worse, like that could be a flaw of mine. You know, I'm not saying that that's a good thing, but I have just personally felt like that's not been a forum where I have felt like thrived. And so it's been really important to be able to hey, say, like, hey, this situation's happening. Like, is that normal? Like, am I crazy? Am I overreacting to that?

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Yeah, yeah. Even even with as much experience as we have, there are still circumstances where people look you dead in the eye and tell you something that you know is absolutely wrong.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

That is not true. They're like, this person, like this is gaslighting. Like, this person is crazy.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Yeah. No, I mean, and there'll be things, you know, I'm I do human resources, fractional work. And so I will have just spoken to a CEO, like, here's the plan, here's the strategy. Here's what you're not gonna say, here's what I'm not gonna say. The lawyers have and they're like, got it, got it. I leave you for two seconds, and you do exactly the opposite of what we discussed. And, you know, you never want to hamper people from being their best selves, but typically in situations like this, there are legal reasons why I suggested not to do that.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Yeah, especially on the HR front, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Right. Yeah, it's liability and exposure. So it's always interesting for me to watch. And I'm happy to say I no longer get pulled into the um urgency or the anxiety of that.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

Like, oh my God, what did you just yeah, I gotta jump and like fix, I need to save them from themselves, right? Like, no, save yourself, man or woman.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

You know, we we talked about that. And I don't I even I'm not trying, it's not it's not my job to make you feel shame. Like, you know, you know we talked about this, let me see what I can do from here type of thing. But that was a huge, I used to really feel so responsible for everything that went wrong.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

And that's the fixer piece, right? Like you own, like you will readily own the problem that's not even remotely yours.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Yeah. It's not my company.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Not my not my circus.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

Not my circus, not my monkeys. Yeah, exactly. But you know, and again, I think if I think about if if you're someone who's achievement oriented, yeah, and you are a pleaser and you get um validation from fixing things, it is a very hard mindset to break. And you have to be willing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

It's also part of the corporate C level thing. Like you are in the trenches in your brain, you're telling yourself, I'm in the trenches with this person. Like I am person for this thing. And that is still true, uh, but it's a fractional in the trenches.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

You're I'm in a I'm fractionally in the trench with the foot in the trench, and my other foot is over here. In another, I am in another trench over here that's worse than the trench that you're in.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Off the back later. So I would say you it teaches you the very thing that we're talking about, which is challenging without a doubt, does or can teach you balance. And I know both you and I, you are someone that is an avid weightlifter and I avid yogi. I don't feel like I can comment, you know, but I go to the yoga class studio.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

You are a yogi.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

Oh, we are both athletes. We are both athletes. Both athletes in our own way now, and um in a way that's very disciplined. And if I didn't have that, uh I just wouldn't be able to to do it at all.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

No, it's way too it's way too stressful um to um context switch is kind of the way I think about it. Um and because the reality of the is if you're in a like if you're doing a layoff situation or a restructuring situation, and you and I've been in all of these in the past year, and it is very hard not to get completely engulfed by it. And and go, and the the thing that is both, I think, gratifying, but also scary is how much your clients will rely on you. Like, you know, we can say, and I because I want people listening if you're thinking about doing this work, it's like we can say re have some detachment, and you really do. You have to work at it. For most of us, that detachment doesn't come naturally. No, and yet you also have to like be willing to dive in and take the call at nine o'clock because the CEO's like, I'm having a call tomorrow and I just need to talk through what I'm gonna say again, even though you sent them all their little points and stuff. They need the reassurance of like, I got like, you're like, you got this. Yeah you got this.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

And that is that that's real, you know, different kind of a role. I actually think the way that you and I do it may not be the way that everyone does it.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Maybe you're you're are you saying we're working too hard for them? Well, I know an easier way to do this because I would like to know.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Both of us have been on the call on Sunday together with one of our clients when we share clients and happy to do that because we know the outcome is for the best. Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

We know it's a it's a good out, we know it's the right thing. Like it needs this needs to happen.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

Yeah, it needs to happen. So it's not about I think I I gave up the idea of like having firm boundaries with my clients. Now I'm just like, you know, I'm gonna be there when you need me. Yeah, exactly. This is a relationship, this is a commitment that we're making to each other. And in in exchange, I'm hoping that you will listen to me and let me do some things for you.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

And also pay me on time. Pay me on time and pay me well, right? Like we, you know, you and I don't we're not cheap. We're not the most expensive, but we're definitely not the cheapest. That's and you know, but and I like I think both an you and I are at a position where we are fortunate to get paid well, but we also work, we also work, we I want people to know, like, you work really, really hard for those dollars.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Yeah, you're really hard for them. I was talking, I've been talking to someone that I was kind of dating, kind of dating, like you know, whatever that means these days.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

And I don't think what do the kids say? Hanging, is it hanging out? Like I don't even I don't know. Listen, I've been out the streets for many years. I've no and if if if it and if I do have to go back into the streets, like it's just I'm done, Jabu. I will I will never go back into the streets because it looks so horrible out there. For sure. I'm just getting dogs. I'm just gonna rescue dogs and finish raising my kids, but I'm not going back to the streets. I've already decided. I will I will be co-owner of that particular dog rescue. Of the dog rescue.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

But um but I the thing that I realized it was like this person does not work as much as

Fractional Work Is Lonely So Build Support

SPEAKER_00 37:15

I do. They they they they are not working. And so in the way that I think of working, and now mind you, when you have your own business, you know, it's an integration. It's not that's right.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

You're always kind of you're always kind of working. I always tell people like it's ambient. I call it ambient, like even if I'm not working, I'm thinking about work, right? I'm just we're just it's my company, yeah. It's just yeah, exactly. It's just what we do, you know?

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Yeah. And and so it's been really interesting because I I do think I think my belief right now is I someone, I do need people in my life, and you're one of these people, and I'm so grateful and appreciative of that, that are moving at the same speed. That could be wrong. Oh, I didn't talk about that. But I have noticed like they move at the same speed in their particular space, whatever that is.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

Is that is that slow? Is that like a slow speed, a fast, or just a different just like a different speed?

SPEAKER_00 38:12

It's definitely not slow, but it it might be, it might be a little extra. I mean, I have friends who, dear friends, they own a restaurant and she's incredibly involved in the community. She's incredibly involved in nonprofits. She sits on the board, the people who have really big, full lives. And I know we are examples of those types of people. So it's not just this work, you know, eight hours of calls that you do a day, but it's also like, how do I affect and impact the whole world that I live in, the local community and the global community, right? So I think, you know, some of what we do gives us access to that and because we're in these moments with these companies who are really trying to do amazing things for the world, a lot of them or their local communities in some cases. And so the impact that we have is outsized. And I think that's part of the attraction to the fixer uh role.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Yeah. Yeah, that's a really I think I think that's a really interesting thought because you and I are both, we we're quite particular about the kinds of clients we work with. Yes. And our client, all our clients um are doing in some case very groundbreaking kind of work in their particular specialty, right? And so that work is we get paid for it, but there's also a kind of mission quality of like, I want to help this organization succeed because what they're doing is really important, right? And I'm not talking about like a hedge fund or a private equity organization. You know, no shade, no shade to those organizations, but like we work with maybe a a little bit of shade. Just a little bit, just a little bit of shade. Um like we we like working with uh we in fact we like, we insist on working with organizations that have a sense of principle and mission. That doesn't mean they're nonprofit, it's just that they have a deeply felt sense of like, here's what we're here to do. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

And and I have left when I found that not to be um aligned with the values that they were purporting to have. And I think that's part of the game. It's like you get in, you really understand what's going on, and then you decide if if they're gonna be your client for the next five years. Because both of you and I have clients that stay with us for really long time. Yeah. We become sort of an outsourced executive for the team while we're fully integrated. So it is a little bit different than I think how some people do fractional work. We end up having very strong relationships with people. Um, we're kind of the safe space that these CEOs can come and talk to. They don't have anyone else that they can do that with.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

Yeah. Yeah. I think I mean, I think that's right. And I think that's why I was saying like this, it's a strange thing because you want to have some separation.

unknown 41:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

And yeah, in order to do the work really well, they have to feel like, you know, they can text you and be like, hey, do you have a minute?

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Yeah. And it's okay. And you're not, and really it's not always appropriate to do that with an employee, quite frankly.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Um, so I'd be like As well, yeah, it's rare like rare, it's rarely, right? At least if they're not, you know, and see felt they're they're not going to go oftentimes to their fellow C level colleague.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Yeah. Rarely, you know. Which I think is okay. You know, you work well, you want to allow them their downtime, but you know, I don't have downtime. Like if I have an open space for you, I I'm happy to talk to you about whatever's going on. I'd rather know about it early than like that part.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

See, that's see, that's for me, there is definitely a self-serving aspect of this. Is like, I don't want you to wait until shit has completely gone nuclear. Do you know what I mean? Like, tell me, like, I am in the no surprises. My kids know it. Like, everyone who knows me, like, don't bring me the surprise. I need to know. And I also feel this strongly about, um, you know, I try to encourage CEOs to be this way, which is encourage your people to talk to you. You like, you know, I, you know, I don't want to go down a rabbit hole, but like, you don't want your teams afraid to tell, afraid to tell you the bad things, afraid to put the stinky fish on the table. You've got to. So that's why I invite that in too, is like, hey, because maybe I can help you solve that. If we, if I can help you solve that. And, you know, a lot of times you're like, oh God, I'm so glad. You know, they're like, I'm so glad I called you. And I'm like, I'm glad you did, because where you were headed was not where we wanted to be. We won't point that.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

Yeah. I mean, I think you and I have worked with a lot of leaders that um are sort of fragile in interesting ways and their team kind of protect them or they believe they're protecting them.

Mission Aligned Clients And No Surprises

SPEAKER_00 43:10

And then what happens is that CEO becomes so disconnected from the actual work that they don't know what's going on. And they don't know how to support it. They don't know how to help. They don't continue expanding and growing. Just because you're CEO or founder does not mean you don't have work to do on yourself.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

Can we say that again? Like, and in fact, I think I I would argue, and again, this is something as fixers we see a lot, is because we see all aspects of that person, right? We see them when they're great on stage and everyone's telling them how amazing they are and they're raising all this money. And we see them when they are really at their lowest point dealing with some challenge and and they're like feeling like, how did I even get here? And they're questioning everything. They're questioning their self-worth. They're questioning their leadership. And, you know, I think that's the thing is, and even as a fixer yourself, you have to constantly interrogate, why am I doing this? Am I doing this? Is this for the highest good? Or am I trying to get, I am, am I trying to make a point? Right now, because now I'm pissed because I told them this thing five times. It went exactly the way I pl I knew it was gonna go. And so now, like, and so it's like you have to constantly say, okay, like, all right, check, you have to check yourself and and say, again, like me being right is not the point of any of it. I always tell myself, like, and I have to tell myself because I am an eldest daughter. And so I like I grew up like junior, you know, it's like it's ingrained of just being independent and opinionated and and efficient and getting things done. And so stuff like when I see just like irresponsibility and lack of accountability and sloppiness, it like it, it like makes my soul want to leave my body. And I have to be like, I just have to be like, this is not mine. Like all I can do is be like, and and and what I've learned is it's uh allowed me to be a better questioner of like, what were you? Tell me what you're trying to do here. Yes. What what is the result? What let's slow down. What's the result you're trying to go for? Talk me through your thinking. Yeah. That really and that helps me slow down because I want to jump in and be like, here are 10 things you could do right now, and then we don't have to talk about this bullshit ever again. But talk me, talk me through it.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Yeah. It's it's it's difficult. I mean, we are people who have a bias for action. We see something that hit, you know, something drops off the counter and hits the floor. We don't walk by it. You know, this morning I was out walking my own. Unlike my children. Like, you know, there was like uh it's some garbage. And so I picked it up. I mean, it's my town. I live in a small town, Northern California, and like the option to walk by it and leave it there just did not feel and that's kind of like these are the core values that you have that you walk through life with. But I was thinking about that because I was in a hurry. I was obviously doing my little steps and I was trying to, you know, and my I have a golden retriever. I am a golden retriever and I have a golden retriever.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Yeah, you are a golden, and I'm I have a Rottweiler and I have a Poodle, so that helps you understand both sides of both sides of my personality. I'm both Rottie and Poodle.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

And and she wants to smell every blade of grass all the time. And greet every single person, whether they want it or not, and take her time ambling along. And, you know, it's painful for me. So you're like, just need to learn this. Like, I think I need to just chill out and just be in the moment. And so I think that's what I'm starting to do with my clients is like instead of getting mortally offended by something, I'm just like, okay, well, that's really interesting. Like, what to your point, like what were what were you hoping to achieve? What were we trying to do? And we can laugh about it and have fun with it, and it's okay, because it's just uh humans being human together, right? So yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

Yeah. And I think, you know, and I I think that our clients appreciate that. I mean, and sometimes I am that the way I just asked it is the way I'll ask them. It's like, I'll be a little bit of kind of playful, like, yeah, okay, this thing happened. Is that what you wanted to? Is that what you intended? I'll be like, oh God, no. It's like, okay, well, like, walk me through your thought process here. What if what did we learn? What did we, you know, because again, to your point, like we're all trying to self-improve. And I think the leaders that we work with, I don't know that they would tell you any of them would say, I'm trying to self-improve. I don't know that any of them would say that. But I I would like to think that uh the way we work with them, we invite that in, right? We, we in, we invite that kind of because we're not being judgmental about it. Like we have opinions, but at the end of the day, I'm not gonna shame you for a mistake you made or for something that went, you know, that didn't go as planned. Like, yeah, that's that's not my it's not my job. And it's a hard what you're doing is a hard job. What they're doing is hard. You know what I mean? It's they get a lot of incoming from other people. They don't need it for they don't need it from me, you know.

SPEAKER_00 48:54

It's not my place to make you feel bad about anything good. But now let's move forward to correct the course.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

Yeah, let's, yeah, let's uh we have a plan and we would it do you feel good about it? I was like, you feel good about the plan. How do you feel about the plan? You're feeling good about it? Like you got a new question, you know? And so, you know, I I hope what people hear is like there's a certain amount of le like there's levity. You you have you can't take it so seriously. And I think the maybe the luxury of being on the fractional side of this is you don't have to keep going if it's not working anymore. If you, you know, especially if it just feels like you don't feel like you're able to really make the difference you thought you were, or you have to adjust your expectations. And I I definitely have found that quite a bit of like, okay, you know, like my ambition again isn't what is actually that the thing that matters here. And I always think we always go much slower than I thought I was. I I'm I think I'm getting that's the part I'm getting used to too, is you know, you scope out this work and you're like, okay, these are all the broken toys I'm gonna clean up. And and then you realize in the span of four months, you've done two of the seven, the seven things on the list. And there was like, you're like, how did I even think I was gonna get all that done? You know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

Exactly. No, it it's all a lot of it can be aspirational. But you know, you and I have accomplished some pretty amazing feats, whether we're external to companies, and that is the goal. Like we really want to do that for our clients.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

Yeah, we want to do good, we want a

Titles, Promotion Walls, And Choosing Yourself

SPEAKER_01 50:42

good run.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

I I I agree. And I think, you know, for the folks who are still in corporate who are watching or listening, you know, what I would say is it's, you know, it's it's okay to have gone as far as you can go and move on. I think, especially when you are getting sick, like there comes a time, you know, like we're we've been talking about like when do you know when to leave or rescope? There comes a time where you sort of, I I can just think about, especially in corporate settings, where like there's just a subtle wall that gets hit. And it might be when you start asking for like, okay, I'm ready to be promoted. Like, when are you gonna make me a VP? And I can tell you four or five people that I've in like recent past who you know shared with me all, you know, I've been informally advising them. And I've said, listen, they're not gonna give it to you. It's not coming. Like, I know you want it. I know you have the sweat equity and the sunk costs of 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. They aren't, if they had wanted you to have this title or this or this whatever by now, they would have given it to you. So you have a choice here. You can stay, be well paid, you know, and because a lot of times they're still really well paid, and just be okay with that's okay. That's a choice. Or if this other thing is really important to you, it's time to go.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

Yes. I do think that's true. And I do think some people, and I was one of these people, so I understand, get really caught up on in titles. And I I do kind of push people, like, think about the scope of what you're doing. Is it fulfilling? Do you think that it's replicable? Like, can you go to a different company and have that same scope of what's going on? Yes, that'd be hard to find. Like, be realistic. Like, nobody really cares what your title is in the world. While while I do know that I cared very strongly about it also, but I do I think back to like, well, if I'd stayed at Airbnb a little bit longer, I would be in a very different financial position now.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

And so, like, it's true, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:48

Facts.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

It's just that I mean that's that's a fact, right? That's the that is the trait, you know, that is, I think this is I I feel like especially for black professionals, this is this is like a real um fork in the road you hit, which is you can, especially in like big companies, yes, you can continue to make more money and um get sort of interesting work that has a broad scope and never make it to the leadership team of either your SBU, your business unit, or the whole company. Like that's super common. And if you're someone who really cares about it, I did. I did care about it because I was like, I know, I know I'm good at this and I'm certainly like it just, but I also knew that staying around and doing the work and not getting the like doing the work, having the visibility, but watching other people move into those roles was just not tenable for me. You know, I wish I had, I was more evolved, but I felt like, you know what? I'm worth, I think it's because I start to get a sense of like what I'm really worth and what's really important. And um, but everyone, but you're right. Like for some people, it all depends on your circumstances, you know, your strategy for your life.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

And I your strategy. Yeah, like that is really it, Matt. I mean, I I wanted what I wanted and I was not gonna stay beyond a certain point. And um, you know, sometimes you get a boss that gets pulled in over you, and you're like, I am I literally better than this person at their job and can't do it, you know. But but the point is to to your earlier point, if they wanted to, they would. It's really important for you to know where you are. I see a lot of people spinning the reels and complaining. And it's like, all right, you made it clear what you wanted. They in essence told you no. They told that's right. They told you no. Yep. Now, what do you you're gonna still keep repeating? Like, nobody does that in real life. Like, you don't go up to someone and say, I need an apple, and they're like, Well, I don't have an apple, and you don't keep asking them for the apple. Like, just get a hold of yourself, like pull yourself together, go somewhere else. There's no place.

SPEAKER_01 55:16

Well, it's at this point, it's it's you're making a choice, right? And this is the thing, you know, I've I've had the these conversations are still so hard for me, Jabu, when I see black leaders, especially because I know how hard they've worked, right? I know it's like I know you've worked hard. I know you've done everything that they asked you to do, and and you're watching a white colleague um move ahead of you, and they weren't asked to do the same thing. And I know it's not fair. And it is what it is, like that's right, it is what it is. This is reality. It is happening, and you are now at a point where they've told you what they how they feel about you. They've now they've shown, yeah. And it's and so now you get to now you get to choose. You can choose to stay. And by the way, that's okay. That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 56:07

Yeah, that's okay. But don't expect more. Yeah, don't expect more. I will never forget resigning from a role. And I was actually working for a black woman at the time, and um she did not want to give me the promotion or the increase that I had asked for. And so I resigned and moved on to a different company. But before I left, she offered me a $40,000 increase in pay, which was actually more than I would have had the guts to ask for myself. So it was far too late. And the error of, you know, not making room for me when I asked for that and my performance demanded it, um, taught me a lesson, which was, you know, it's everyone has the right to make the decisions and have the people in the roles that they want. But if this isn't working for me, I am responsible for my own happiness. It is not else's fault, or, you know, I can't blame anyone else for that, for the lack of that. So how do I move in a world that is actually here for me to have a good life, like a fulfilling life?

SPEAKER_01 57:13

Oh, this is the question. You know what? This is the question. And I was gonna say it's the perfect place, I think, maybe to end until the next episode, because in my mind, that is the ultimate question. And I think it's the ultimate question that that is the one that matters most for how you navigate this crazy world that we're in. So it's good to be with you today, Jabs.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

Thank you, Portia. I always love talking with you. I know. All right, until next time. Until next time.

SPEAKER_01 57:50

Thanks for listening to Ungovernable Women. Our producer is Megan King. Our social media is managed by Destiny Iker. You can find us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, and TikTok. The handles are in the show notes. Be sure to like and subscribe to the pod wherever you listen to your pods. Until then, stay ungovernable.